Rough play
- Thread starter blessedfarmgirl
- Start date
Margali
Herd Master
I think @Baymule is suggesting a "moat" approach to Gracie doing night duty similar to my setup.
I have a night shelter made of 4x4x48" rigid panels and tposts. Sheep come in willingly for small grain ration. My rottie farm dog has free run of paddocks at night. He keeps stray dogs and coyotes off property. He isn't allowed in paddocks with sheep cause he chases them. His prority is my kids.
I have a night shelter made of 4x4x48" rigid panels and tposts. Sheep come in willingly for small grain ration. My rottie farm dog has free run of paddocks at night. He keeps stray dogs and coyotes off property. He isn't allowed in paddocks with sheep cause he chases them. His prority is my kids.
Baymule
Herd Master
This isn’t a terrible list. It can all be worked with. She is in her stupid teenage phase. Some LGDs dig huge holes. Then space aliens come down, vacuum it all up and disappear. You never find the dirt to go back in the hole. Big holes-deal with it, not likely to change.
Tear’s everything up- she is a puppy and may grow out of this. What is your reaction when she shreds things up?
Chases livestock-supervised visits only. What about putting her in a cow panel pen next to the goats? Then supervised visits with the goats.
Food aggressive-stop this now. Supervised visits, put her on a leash, feed the goats and walk her right up to them. If she tries to get aggressive, correct her. You will have to repeat this , maybe a lot. Gentle correction first, it may take awhile, then more serious. If she persists, do what I call a Come to Jesus Meeting. LOL
Jumps on guests-get friends to help you with this. She jumps on them, they raise knee HARD, yell NO. Hopefully the knee jerk is hard enough to flip her backwards. It will not hurt her.
Roam and escape fences.-refer back to smoking hot wire.
- Thread starter
- #14
blessedfarmgirl
Loving the herd life
That's a really good idea. I will definitely keep that in mind when I'm building my goat pasture and buildings. Maybe a pen within a pen for Gracie, then let her out at night into the main pasture area to roam? She has climbed over cattle panels, so I'd have to run a hotwire around the pen to keep her from climbing/digging.
- Thread starter
- #15
blessedfarmgirl
Loving the herd life
So true, LOL! Yup, that's one thing I'll always have to deal with. Those holes are everywhere. And those vacuuming space aliens are so real.Ok, so I'm pretty sure I've never caught her in the act of tearing things up, so I can't say. But 99% of the time, it was carelessness on our part leaving things so she could chew them up and ruin them. Also, I think it was boredom from being tied out and having tarps in her reach (sorry, chicken tractor) which is also sadly 100% our fault. I think if she's no longer tied out all the time she might be less destructive?
This is a good idea. I think I'm definitely going to go with some form of this idea. I think my main problem is, I gave up on trying to help her and train her to the appropriate behavior around livestock after she had been acting up worse and worse over time. I guess I was just expecting a perfect dog like Moses who never needed any behavioral correction around livestock, and I didn't really realize I needed to invest time to help her. I guess I'm starting to see that now.
I can start doing this now, I think. My goats hate dogs, so they both need to get used to each other over time. My herd queen might try to ram Gracie, so I'll see what happens.
And my dogs know about that type of meeting, I think😆
I don't really have any friends who would want to/be able to do this, so I'll just be stuck with keeping the dogs put up whenever there are guests around, or using the e-collar.
Baymule
Herd Master
I got my first LGD in 2011. She was a Great Pyrenees, a free throwaway. A problem dog, chicken killer and her owners couldn’t break her of it. We lived in town, I really wasn’t ready for a LGD, but I sure didn’t turn her down. This is her story.
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My Pyrenees Doesn't Guard Sheep, Goats or Chase Bears Hawk! post #26
Paris is our girl's name. She was given to us as a 10 month old because she was killing chickens. Ya'll know the story.......a youngster turned loose on 3 acres full of chickens with no supervision. Her owners would find dead chickens with no teeth marks, but wet (slobbered) and dead. So she was...
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Paris Has Begun Lamb Training
We built a small pen in the backyard and weaned the lambs 3 days ago. We put the lambs in Paris territory. For those who don't know Paris, her post is below. http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/my-pyrenees-doesnt-guard-sheep-goats-or-chase-bears-hawk-post-26.23771/ We no longer live in town...
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Paris is Gone
It's been a long relationship with a smack dab crazy dog. Anybody that reads my posts knows about Paris, a Great Pyrenees. Paris was a free throw away dog, a chicken killer. While I don't recommend taking on a problem dog as your very first LGD, it worked out, finally, for us. Her story begins...
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Margali
Herd Master
This is shown on a residential fence but you can do it to top of tposts too. Keeps dogs / coyotes from climbing over. I had to clear a bunch of trees leaving logs around 3in diameter. I have them laid around outside of nightpen to discourage digging, no electricity at my sheep shed.
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How to Build a Coyote Roller
Photo Courtesy of ccspca.com Whether you’re trying to keep the coyotes out of your yard or keep your dogs from escaping, this DIY fence roll bar known as a coyote roller will do the trick. We’ll list the materials you need along with each step explaining how to build your very own coyote roller...
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Ridgetop
Herd Master
It sounds like you already know the mistakes you made in choosing this dog. It also sounds like you realize you did not start the training she needed when she needed it. You can still work with her and try to make her into a more trustworthy guardian.
Her behavior around the goats is the most important problem. If she cannot be trusted around livestock, you may have to put her down since she will be a danger. As you said, you cannot home a dog that attacks livestock, escapes from fences, and runs away. Getting Gracie trained will take lots of time. If you can't get her to be safe with the goats though, you will have no option but to put her down. If she attacks your animals, she could leave the property and attack someone else's livestock. That would be a death sentence for her and leave you liable for substantial money damages. Euthanizing a dog is never easy, but you may have to make that decision eventually if you can't retrain her.
20 months is older than a juvenile play-chase phase. She doesn't sound like she will ever be totally trustworthy with the goats, but you can work with her. If you have a goat that will butt her when she chases them, put them together. You have to be careful here because at 20 months Gracie could decide to kill the goat if it hurts her. One thing that is good is that goats don't usually flee like sheep from a chasing dog, they will often bunch up and try to stand off a dog attack. You may find that she will guard if she is in a surrounding area but not with the goats. Unfortunately, since she is an escape and runaway expert, she won't remain on the property to do this type of perimeter guarding. Keeping the dog on the property will be your hardest task. This is common to 98% of Prs. They can climb a 6' chain link fence, squeeze through a stock panel with a wire missing, go under and through seemingly impermeable walls. A hot wire can be effective is properly installed and kept HOT.
The coyote roller has been effective but mainly when animals are trying to climb over a fence. Since @blessedfarmgirl uses 4' electric wire fences, it won't do much for a Pyr that just jumps over the fence completely. Pyrs that want to escape or leave their property will always be able to do so. HOWEVER, keeping her tied up is not a good idea. Not only is she a sitting duck for predators since she can't defend herself, she also is useless as a guardian since she can't get at the predator attacking the goats. Tied up Gracie can also get tangled in the rope or chain and either strangle herself, break a leg, etc.
Food aggression is a problem. First don't leave grain or minerals free choice in the goat pen. You will have to feed their grain and minerals daily while keeping Gracie on a leash. With Gracie on the lease correct her sharply every time she tries to get the grain or minerals. Do not shout loudly at her though since many dogs think that the owner's shouts are encouragement. If she is food aggressive with you or the family, it is a worse problem.
Digging holes - this could be to find a cooler area to lay down in. A lot of Pyrs like to excavate areas under bushes as a den. Many dogs will scoop out a nice comfy hollow in the dirt to find a cooler spot to sleep in. Most dogs will find stuff around the yard and chew on it. Two of our 4 Anatolians went through a period of chewing up hoses. One would scour the property and bring back treasures he found, depositing them in a special spot on the lawn. Antique bottles, giant branches, and even an old Kewpie doll found their way into his treasure trove.
The rough play is normal. They are practicing how to attack and kill predators. If these were terriers they would be "cute". Since LGDs weigh well over 100 lbs. they can be dangerous during this play. We have Anatolians and the way they attack a predator is to run straight for it, slamming into its body with their chest and shoulders and knocking it off its feet. While the predator is struggling to get up the LGD will kill it by breaking its neck or back. The best way to defend yourself is to stay out of the line of play. Carry a standard shepherd's crook. You can set the end in the ground between you and the dogs and use that as a shield. Do not hit the dogs with the crook, just use it to help you keep your balance and keep it planted between the dogs and yourself. Normally dogs engaging in rough play like this do not hit you intentionally, so you need to be aware of where they are at all times and sidestep them as they rush by.
Her behavior around the goats is the most important problem. If she cannot be trusted around livestock, you may have to put her down since she will be a danger. As you said, you cannot home a dog that attacks livestock, escapes from fences, and runs away. Getting Gracie trained will take lots of time. If you can't get her to be safe with the goats though, you will have no option but to put her down. If she attacks your animals, she could leave the property and attack someone else's livestock. That would be a death sentence for her and leave you liable for substantial money damages. Euthanizing a dog is never easy, but you may have to make that decision eventually if you can't retrain her.
20 months is older than a juvenile play-chase phase. She doesn't sound like she will ever be totally trustworthy with the goats, but you can work with her. If you have a goat that will butt her when she chases them, put them together. You have to be careful here because at 20 months Gracie could decide to kill the goat if it hurts her. One thing that is good is that goats don't usually flee like sheep from a chasing dog, they will often bunch up and try to stand off a dog attack. You may find that she will guard if she is in a surrounding area but not with the goats. Unfortunately, since she is an escape and runaway expert, she won't remain on the property to do this type of perimeter guarding. Keeping the dog on the property will be your hardest task. This is common to 98% of Prs. They can climb a 6' chain link fence, squeeze through a stock panel with a wire missing, go under and through seemingly impermeable walls. A hot wire can be effective is properly installed and kept HOT.
The coyote roller has been effective but mainly when animals are trying to climb over a fence. Since @blessedfarmgirl uses 4' electric wire fences, it won't do much for a Pyr that just jumps over the fence completely. Pyrs that want to escape or leave their property will always be able to do so. HOWEVER, keeping her tied up is not a good idea. Not only is she a sitting duck for predators since she can't defend herself, she also is useless as a guardian since she can't get at the predator attacking the goats. Tied up Gracie can also get tangled in the rope or chain and either strangle herself, break a leg, etc.
Food aggression is a problem. First don't leave grain or minerals free choice in the goat pen. You will have to feed their grain and minerals daily while keeping Gracie on a leash. With Gracie on the lease correct her sharply every time she tries to get the grain or minerals. Do not shout loudly at her though since many dogs think that the owner's shouts are encouragement. If she is food aggressive with you or the family, it is a worse problem.
Digging holes - this could be to find a cooler area to lay down in. A lot of Pyrs like to excavate areas under bushes as a den. Many dogs will scoop out a nice comfy hollow in the dirt to find a cooler spot to sleep in. Most dogs will find stuff around the yard and chew on it. Two of our 4 Anatolians went through a period of chewing up hoses. One would scour the property and bring back treasures he found, depositing them in a special spot on the lawn. Antique bottles, giant branches, and even an old Kewpie doll found their way into his treasure trove.
The rough play is normal. They are practicing how to attack and kill predators. If these were terriers they would be "cute". Since LGDs weigh well over 100 lbs. they can be dangerous during this play. We have Anatolians and the way they attack a predator is to run straight for it, slamming into its body with their chest and shoulders and knocking it off its feet. While the predator is struggling to get up the LGD will kill it by breaking its neck or back. The best way to defend yourself is to stay out of the line of play. Carry a standard shepherd's crook. You can set the end in the ground between you and the dogs and use that as a shield. Do not hit the dogs with the crook, just use it to help you keep your balance and keep it planted between the dogs and yourself. Normally dogs engaging in rough play like this do not hit you intentionally, so you need to be aware of where they are at all times and sidestep them as they rush by.
- Thread starter
- #19
blessedfarmgirl
Loving the herd life
Thank you, @Ridgetop. All that was extremely helpful. She isn't food aggressive with anyone except the livestock. I made sure I put my hand in the bowl while she ate from a young age. I don't usually yell at her, she knows my displeased voice, and I make it sharp and low like a growl. When she was a teenage dog, she almost never listened even when I used that voice, but she has gotten more obedient, reacting immediately if I tell her off. She is good at redirecting her attention away from what I'm reprimanding her for, so that's a plus.
I kind of figured rough play was important. I think it just boils down to me being more careful and aware when they play.
I am starting to formulate my "battle plan" for training Gracie, and I'll be implementing a lot of these tips y'all have given me. I may start a thread on her progress so I can update you on how she does. Reading Paris' threads really gave me hope because Gracie is really not as bad as I thought compared to other so-called "failed" LGDs. I honestly would probably have put Paris down if she had been my dog and I'm so glad you were able to give her a chance and that her story ended well and happily, Baymule. I'm going to give Gracie that same chance if I can.
I kind of figured rough play was important. I think it just boils down to me being more careful and aware when they play.
I am starting to formulate my "battle plan" for training Gracie, and I'll be implementing a lot of these tips y'all have given me. I may start a thread on her progress so I can update you on how she does. Reading Paris' threads really gave me hope because Gracie is really not as bad as I thought compared to other so-called "failed" LGDs. I honestly would probably have put Paris down if she had been my dog and I'm so glad you were able to give her a chance and that her story ended well and happily, Baymule. I'm going to give Gracie that same chance if I can.
Baymule
Herd Master
I thought Paris’s story would be helpful to you. Her nickname was Psycho B!tch. LOL
Don’t give up on Gracie. You have to double down and be a trainer to a type of dog that nothing in your entire life has prepared you for. Read. Read the forum posts. I’d stay away from the foo-foo FB groups. Some of those people are insanely stupid. Study the forum posts to learn about these dogs. I got Great Pyrenees as my first dogs because they are easier LGDs to train. LOL
I have a 14 month old Anatolian I’m training, I’ll post his thread. I also have two other Anatolians, I’ll post their threads too. My dogs have taught me more than I ever taught them.
Don’t give up on Gracie. You have to double down and be a trainer to a type of dog that nothing in your entire life has prepared you for. Read. Read the forum posts. I’d stay away from the foo-foo FB groups. Some of those people are insanely stupid. Study the forum posts to learn about these dogs. I got Great Pyrenees as my first dogs because they are easier LGDs to train. LOL
I have a 14 month old Anatolian I’m training, I’ll post his thread. I also have two other Anatolians, I’ll post their threads too. My dogs have taught me more than I ever taught them.
